Hello and welcome to the rewind where we dive into the making and legacy of various films from cult classics to awardwinning masterpieces. This week's film is Mary Shell's Frankenstein, the 1994 Gothic horror directed and starring Kenneth Brener, which many consider to be the most faithful film adaptation of Mary Shel's 1818 novel. And it's also one of the most divisive of the movies amongst critics with plenty of drama behind the scenes as well.
Joining me today to talk all things Mary Shell's Frankenstein is writer, narrator, editor, Mr. Tyler Nichols. You can check out his stuff, Joe Blow. You can also go to Tyler Nicholscreates.com to check out his work there. I'm going to have all links to everything Tyler Nichols in the show notes below. And I'm happy to say Tyler, I thank you so very much for joining me again on the rewind. How are you? Ah, I'm not too bad. How are you?
I'm really well, thank you. Um, today this is a little funny for me though because it is past Halloween season and it's a sunny day here in Sydney, but I'm talking all things coffee horror with Mary Shirley's Frankenstein.
This was a movie for me. So, this came out 94, so I was around 13 years old when it came out. And I didn't see this in the cinema, but I remembered um my older brother who's a frequent supporting character in a lot of my videos cuz you know he had a video store card and he used to bring back movies all the time. Um he brought back this film and it was a film that my younger brother and I just watched over and over and over again cuz we haven't quite seen a horror movie like this. So I think it was one of the first time I was really introduced to kind of gothic horror in the context that that Brandon was trying to do on this film. And there's so many things about the movie that I absolutely love. A lot of it comes from ignorance because I before then I hadn't seen a Frankenstein movie before. I wasn't sure if Robert Dairo was supposed to play Frankenstein. There wasn't that kind of stigma to it. I just went in there fresh eyes and took it in. And I love the movie and I still do quite like the movie very much as well. I don't know whether that's nostalgia or what have you, but it's a film that I do have a soft spot for. Um, and the whole thing about the um the heart being ripped out of Helen and Bottom's Carter's chest. never seen anything like that in a movie before. Maybe with the exception of a Temple of Doom, right, with that whole kind of scene in that movie.
Um, but that was just like a a moment of horror that I think, you know, I would never forget and still don't. It's quite it's quite a, you know, shocking startling kind of scene in the movie still sticks with me, especially um when I watched at such a young age. Uh, what about yourself, Tyler? Do you remember the first time you came across Mary Shell's Frankenstein?
Well, yes. So, I actually didn't see this until high school when we were reading the book and then the teacher had us uh had us watch this because as you said, it's like considered one of the most faithful adaptations. Though, doing research for this, I discovered there's apparently a Hallmark movie that people consider to be even more faithful to the uh faithful to the book. So, I'm very curious to now to see that one. But uh yeah, I had seen it then. I I liked it for some of its uh eccentricities and how different it was. I had grown up on like the Boris Caroff films as well as Young Frankenstein was a staple in my my household. So, this Dairo version of Frankenstein's monster, whatever you want to call him, it's uh is very different than what I was used to and I kind of dug it then. I had a very different experience this time viewing it. uh can't was not a fan and it to the point where it kind of affected my viewing experience with the new GMO Deluro version cuz there are a lot of similarities that then uh yeah kind of crossed over but like yeah I I I struggled with this one but I understand people who are fans of the book being really into it.
So a name that is going to come up a lot is Francis Copela. of course people who do know him Godfather Apocalypse Now um the big the big film that kind of came before disregards to horror was um Bram Stoker's Dracula which he did in 1992 and that was pretty much like it's one of his biggest kind of movies of all time I I think like definitely culture box office wise and all that um also a film that kind of divided critics a little bit in regards to his take on coffee horror and such. Um, to me, I like the film myself and I think there's um a thing about that movie. It's kind of like almost like oporatic in a sort of way. I know Copa loves opera and he references quite a bit in some of his works. Um, so he was going to do Frankenstein next and he was kind of attached to direct it, but after the whole um Dracula thing, he was like, I'm going to try to pass this off to someone else. Um, how he kind of came about it is that there's this bloke named Steph Lady um kind of fascinating bloke. He he was like um in his kind of a bio on this guy in his 20s he hitch hitchhiked across the country. He drilled oil in Texas. He worked in a mental hospital in Tennessee. He did a variety of jobs by the time he comes to LA. He becomes a Spanish teacher and he's doing scripts. So he had like 13 scripts which were kind of like written. Only two became movies which used Frankenstein and later on Dr. Doolittle or the um the Eddie Murphy adaptation. Um, so he finds himself in Francis Ford Copela's office because he wrote this treatment about Frankenstein which Copela really liked. Um, and so that kind of got the ball rolling here. Um, and the interesting thing about this um, this kind of adaptation as well I think anyway is that I don't remember the last time there was a Frankenstein movie that kind kind of came out before this. I think maybe um Monster Squad with what maybe that Frankenstein was kind of the last thing before that. But is I think once in a while Frankenstein kind of comes up it seems like once every generation and has a little bit of an update to it. You just mentioned the del Toro one. This is Frankenstein circa ' 90s. But without that Dracula coming up beforehand though, there's no way you can move on Frankenstein, right? It kind of seemed like Copelo setting up his own kind of dark universe here, wasn't it? Yeah, there was a definitely a time during that era where it was like, "Oh, wait. They're doing uh they're going to try and do a its own uh yeah un they're bringing back the universal monsters but in this gothic horror taking it more seriously kind of way but still overthe-top and stylized which I mean a lot of that has to do with Copela and then who would eventually direct Mary Shel's Frankenstein and Kenneth Bronna because I know that a lot of the behind the scenes stuff with that is Kenneth Bronna's ego going out of control.
Yeah, big time. Um, and getting to kind of Brandon now at the time he's 33 years old. Um, and he's kind of like seen especially through American eyes. I think he himself says that in the UK people kind of saw him as a bit of a kind of like bit of a pretentious kind of guy and all that, but in America like this is a second coming of it's like this mix of Ason Wells and Lawrence Olivier kind of put together one thing. He's done like Frankenstein was his fifth movie in a row that he directed and starred in which is kind of crazy because he did Henry the fifth dead again Peter's friends much to do about nothing and I don't know if you saw the cast ever seen the cast in that movie they're just stacked with people from everyone from Kiana Reeves to Densel Washington and it's just it's crazy movie so he gets Copela kind of brings him in and asks about this movie at first he says he wasn't really interested in doing it because his whole thing about Frankenstein was the Boris Caroff kind of like you know monster classic universal ones which he thought he found to be like classics but kind of like way past their time. Um but then when he read the book that's where that that really kind of brought him to um certain certain comparisons especially which he had in regards to Shakespeare and I think that's something that come kind of comes across in this movie here that there's a kind of Shakespearean element even kind of like a Greek tragedy element to it that he brings to the film um which I think can be to the film's benefit and to its downfall as well because this is the world that he cames from. This is what he knows right and that's kind of like where he wants to take this movie. Um, but I guess you know when it comes to all things Brena now we see him as what he's an Oscar winning writer. He's more of he's a character actor. He still directs some films like the with the um uh what do they call the Agatha Christie novels and such. But what do you think is a comparison that we can make today of this writer director who's kind of like grabbed everyone's attention. He's like god this is like the second coming. cuz I can't think of like the one guy that's kind of like that that everyone that everyone would just be like you got everything kind of the the sun kind of revolves around especially in Hollywood. Um some kind of import that that is like almost like an exotic creature that Hollywood must grab and maintain and and turn into their own kind of uh Hollywood churning uh machine. Um I can't think of anyone quite like that these days.
They tried to Taiko Titi was close. He was he he had some he had some hit after hit after hit and then it's like they tried to milk him dry. So then it was like ah nope tried to put his weird sense of humor into too many different things and where then it's like ah it doesn't work in everything. So but yeah Bronna is someone that's very unique. It's funny because I mostly when I think of Kenneth Bronna I always think of uh how he cheated on Emma Thompson with Ela Bonum Carter during this film and I think even even Emma Thompson's like daughter has like recently shaded him regarding it.
I always I I always think of that whenever genuinely anytime I see anytime I see uh um Bronna because even we're this is Christmas essentially. It's like right before Thanksgiving that we're filming, but like uh it's practically Christmas time and there's this mo the movie Love Actually that then Emma Thompson's in and the whole thing is she's like her husband might be cheating on her and she she's talked about played that right?
Yes. Alan Rickman and it's like this uh she even has said that like the main her in inspiration was like thinking of what Kenneth Bronna did to her. It's like so I I very much anytime I used to always think of Thor but then once I heard the the Emma Thompson story that's all I think of when I think of Kenneth Bronna and the interesting thing about that time so around 94 you have this Brit he comes to America he's making films he makes a film in Britain but it's a Hollywood production right but it's kind of like kind of almost like the Hugh Grant situation as well he's like this guy kind of this another Brit who comes in he's the next kind of leading man people making comparisons to maybe like Kerry Grant or something and he comes the states and he gets engulfed in his own uh uh situation cheating on Elizabeth Hurley with a with a prostitute in LA amongst all all kind of things which is uh kind of interesting how the the Brits here uh kind of get kind of uh found themselves in these kind of like situations that aren't was weren't good for their for their careers whatsoever always hoisted by their own petards
I want to talk Frank Darab so he gets brought in because he wants to he they need to do rewrite cuz Brandon pitches, you know, Shakespeare, Greek tragedy, all his stuff. He's like, it's not here yet, but we can get there. Frank Daraboutant comes in. He does a rewite. Um before then, he so Shaw Shank was kind of like being made that year. It was coming out 94. Hadn't quite come out yet. I think the big stuff he did so far was um did a few episodes of Young Indiana Jones, Nightmare on Elm Street 3, which I think is like one of the best in the series. Um the Blob uh remake as well. Um he comes in, he does some stuff. Um and then afterwards he actually says um and I found this in a conversation he had. He said, "I've this is Daraban's words is that I've described Frankenstein as the best script I ever wrote and the worst movie I've ever seen." Um and you know someone like Frank Darabout when he says something like that, you know, he's a quality guy that makes quality movies. And I think that is something that is shared with a lot of people on his production where that the the initial thought of what this might become is totally different from what it did became because it comes back to Brana essentially getting high in his own supply and getting a little crazy with stuff here.
Yeah, I had I was literally actually in the process of finding that quote because we we did a WTF on it for Joe Blow very recently and that was the that quote kept going around in my head like yeah because Darabon's the man. I absolutely love Frank Darabot. So to have him have like say that kind of thing about the finished product where you're like, "Ooh, that's that's not something that you want your your writer saying." But that's also the more like the more I've ever read up on behind the scenes stuff, so many writers it's like, yeah, they get the they might be attributed as the writer, but that doesn't mean what ends up on screen can all be attributed to them because so much gets changed from the script process just to filming whether because we've always heard the stories of like, oh yeah, the director was, you know, changing changing the script the night of or the day like the warning of we got new pages, new pages. It's all just uh WGA guidelines that then that's the reason that like someone else is still listed as the the writer, but they might be like the structure is mine, but nothing else is.
Hi guys, Matt here from Matt's Movie Reviews, letting you know that the Matt's Movie Reviews YouTube channel has launched channel membership. This provides exclusive videos and other cool stuff as well for all channel members. It's under one tier, one price, and with that one price, you get um exclusive reviews. For example, I'll be going through the American Film Institutees top 100 movies. So, every week, I'll do a new review based on that movie list. You can get exclusive reviews based on your request. Request a movie review and I will review it for you. You'll also get exclusive content for behind the scenes stuff as well. Um, you also get exclusive um, interviews that I haven't posted yet as part of my podcast like older interviews with Academy Award winners and other great filmmakers and actors as well and all bunch of other cool stuff as well. I hope you can all join up, be part of this great experience I have on offer for you. Support indie content creators, support a movie critic like myself who is trying to make it through the content creator space. Matt's Movie Reviews YouTube channel memberships. Please join and get some great exclusive content. I think a big one of that is Jaws. A lot of the big big stuff in Jaws that people kind of remember from lines like um going to need a bigger boat to like the USS Indianapolis thing is attributed to other people. I'm pretty sure Roy Schneider kind of came up with the whole going to need a bigger boat thing on set where you had someone like John Millius come in and do kind of rewrites on that monologue, give his own speech to it. And it happens like like you said it happens quite a lot who the people who are credited um do get things changed. I think the only person maybe the only people you can think for sure their words have gone to screen and no one's messed with it. Tarantino Woody Allen kind of people like that like the writer directors kind of thing where it's like it's their thing it's their voice no one's going to touch it. Kevin Smith I I imagine in the indie world as well in that kind of context as well. um with for big things like this. By the way, what a cracking lineup just looking that if you look back on it, uh Copa, producer, Brena, director, um Dairo, actor, uh Darabout, screenwriter. That's that's like something else. That's like a dream team kind of situation kind of put together. And so, no wonder like expectations were were big for something like this.
Um going forward,
the whole cast the whole cast is great. like Ian Holm, John Cle, there's just it's a there's a who's who of just big British actors at the time.
Um, speaking of the cast, so let's talk about Dairo. I think u a lot of people when they think Dairo as Frankenstein is a kind of uh concept they have in their brain or what that is. I remember Frank, you know, the sound comedian Frank Caliando who does a lot of the impressions. He did uh like um a funny impression of Dairo as Frankenstein where he's like, "Oh, I'm Frankenstein's monster. Look, I got bolts in my neck. Oh, scary, scary." That kind of thing, right? I actually quite like how they did Frank the Frankenstein's creature known as the creature in this movie because it was just different. And I think some when you kind of like how um Oldman was different as Dracula with kind of like the look and everything else and like the big hair and what all that kind of stuff. They they definitely had to do that here as well. Um supposedly Andy Garcia and Jerro Depadu were both kind of like considerations to take this. The G Andy Garcia one's funny because I think um Copelo I was thinking Garcia for Dracula as well in Bram Stoker's Dracula which would have been an interesting uh kind of thing to see but of course everything worked out well with that with Gary Alman. Um Dead would have been kind of interesting as well I think. Um he I think he had like kind of like the facial features for it. Um but Dairo gets the part. Um so Dairo actually said that um he wanted to look at it kind like more of a reality based kind of thing. You know Dairo being who he is. He kind of like does research and such. Um he looked at um stroke victims people who kind of suffered with um like um cardiac ailments with that's how he kind of got the the whole thing with his lips kind like the droopy kind of thing and all that. And Brandon was saying that um while the makeup is really important on that, he wanted to make sure that people understood that um it was a man among in the creature like you need to see Dairo's eyes and get into his soul and do all that kind of stuff. Um and I think just the way that it did kind of come about and the way they do the whole reconstruction with the stitches and everything else and and how he kind of looked and that really cool kind of duster kind of uh jacket thing he had which
Yeah, I love the duster. I I love it. When I was speaking to Dust, I couldn't help but think of it's always sunny with Dustin as well because there is a scene actually in the movie where talking again of Brando being high in his own supply. There's a scene in the lab where he's running around. He's shirtless, but he's wearing like these really long I don't know if it's velvet or something coat and I just I was just thinking of the duster, you know, kind of thing because it's like he's a shirt underneath very very shooting himself in the most flattering way possible and it is so funny. It's like if he has a shirtless scene, you can tell that guy was just doing a bunch of crunches and stuff. He has like the glistening look and it's so funny. Yep. He's got the the angles, all that stuff ready to go. boots looks good. I tell you what though, if you're young at that time and you can pull it off and you're directing the movie, you do it. Cuz when you're 65 and you look back, you like, "Hey, check it out." You know?
Yeah. Oh, yeah. I got it. I'm 34 right now and I was like, "Yeah, I'd do the same thing."
Oh, dude. I'm 44. I got 10 on you. So, I definitely do the same thing. Um, but yeah, I think it was really cool how they how they did it in this. And I know that Dairo has a certain um impression of a bunch of people about what he is, but he's Robert Dairo. He's like one of the greatest actors of all time. And while it might not be a hit with some people, I actually quite liked what he brought to the the creature in this movie. I kind of felt that humanity, but also the savagess as well uh was was quite good. What was your impressions of that to Nero as a Frankenstein's monster in this movie?
He's my favorite part about it. I I really like I like the design. I like his performance. It's understated. It's at least more understated than you would expect from someone like Dairo. And it's not like it's it's not nearly as prominent as you would probably expect it to be. This is definitely Bronna's movie, but I I don't know. I I really like it. I like how how it's framed. I like cuz like Dairo is not a super tall man and they make him seem very pretty imposing in it and his
they do
and it's I don't know. We my impression of Dairo is always someone that doesn't isn't really willing to compromise much with when it comes to film making and that's because of I'm mostly seeing him like you know meet the parents on where he's just like no you're I'm giving you what I'm giving you. But this actually feels like something where he actually met Bronna halfway and gave him like cuz I can't I can't see even 1998 Dairo sitting in the makeup chair for whatever six seven hours to do like to actually do all of this. I feel like if anything he's he's turning that kind of role down which maybe it's because of Frankenstein that then he then was like no I'm not putting myself through that again. But yeah, I was I was impressed with how much he was willing to kind of lose himself in the role, which I know that's also a criticism is that some people are like, "Oh, it's there's too much Dairo in in it, but I I disagree and think that it's it feels different enough." He's easily my favorite part about it. What about you?
I I love him in this movie. I think my favorite part of Dai Nero in his film are those parts at the beginning of the creature's journey where he's kind of like feeling his way through things. The the scene where um he befriends the blind man in the farm and he kind of you know he gets the crops for that family. He's trying to do good but because of his appearance and everything he gets kind of shunned away and then he starts sobbing later and like at that point you know his um his faith in humanity has just been crushed. I found it to be incredibly effective um at the time and in a movie where sometimes I think the lavishness and the the oporadic kind of feel of it um is so big and overwhelming a lot of times sometimes to its good sometimes to its detriment. Um you kind of lose the humanity of what's going on here. And I think those quiet scenes where Dairo is just kind of like, you know, the creature is like going through the motions of what it is to be feared and and hated and discarded um not only by your by his father, but like from society as a whole. And only the blind man, the man who can't see is the one that can kind of tell that this this man's hurting, but has got a good heart. Um, I actually I like that and I think it would have been cool to see more of that. And I think that's kind of something that did happen behind the scenes where we we were getting Copala pushing for more um subtlety and Brana just going, "Fuck no, I ain't giving that to you. No way."
Subtlety. What's that word? Seemed to be Bronna's response to anything subtle. It's like, "Huh? No, that's not what this is. We're going practically comic book and how how over the top nearly every like how he's shooting and how he's presenting things. He has to like smack you over the head with it
big time. Um, another person we got to talk about, Helena Bottom Carter in this movie. She plays Elizabeth. Um, so she's like the adoptive s sister, but also becomes a fiance later as well. Um, in the movie and there's another part of the film that happens as well and spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it. Um there's like a bride of Frankenstein kind of like thing happening there as well at the end of the movie which I think for a lot of people kind of took him back at the time um because everyone knows bride to be the sequel of as opposed to in the same story and I don't I haven't read the novel the the Mary Shel's book. I don't know whether that was something that was even in in the book. I'm not 100%. Have you even read it? Like I haven't read it myself. So,
I read it back in in high school and I don't think that it's part of it, but I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's not part of the book,
which is it's an interesting kind of addition to it all. Um, so supposedly um Emma Thompson, which as we spoke before, was Kenneth Brener's wife at the time. In every film that Brena did, Emma Thompson was in. So, like that four films in a row. Um, and so when Brana got the got the thing, he kind of presented the idea to her and she's like, she's doing Junior with Devito and Schwarzenegger. Um, she's doing I forgot what the other movie was that she was doing as well. Um so can't do it this time hun but you go ahead and you know cast someone else which he does and we know the consequences of that because Helen the bottom Carta now she was this is the first time I've ever sat in a movie because I think at that time she did a lot of kind of period films like room with a view and and things like that so that wasn't really I wasn't watching that like at 13 it's not my bag right um so this is the first time I kind of saw her in this and later on she became to be like Tim Burton's muse in a lot of ways in a lot of the films there Um, I thought she was pretty cool in the movie. She brought a certain sensuality to the film as well. Um, and you can kind of tell as well that the chemistry between the two, Brena and Bon Carta was really strong. And of course later on we find out that there was a, you know, adulterous affair going on there as well. Yeah.
Um, and then she she appears in like probably the most,
you know, talked about scene with the whole thing with her heart being ripped out of her chest and all that. Um, what do you think of Bob McCarter in this movie?
I like her as the movie goes on, but in the be I have there's a lot of stuff with Bronna in this that I'm not a fan of. I will say they have great chemistry like they're they're very electric together but
there is and this is true of the book too where there's just there's and I'm I'm not surprised that Bronna took to the source material so much because like you said earlier it's like Shakespeare with like how how it's presented and like that's how it is in the book. It's very Shakespearean and so I just don't really jive with that and I just kind of zone out during that kind of dialogue and it's the like it genuinely doesn't even really pick up for me until they're actually starting the process of creating the monster or the creature and her stuff again prior to prior to her actually getting like the remade and all that. I I don't know. She's fine, but I think she's kind of it's a kind of a role that anyone could do that it just doesn't doesn't stand out to me very much. But I think that's genuinely outside of like Dairo that I could say that's the case for pretty much every aspect of the uh the performances and the people cuz it's just not my not my kind of thing.
I want to talk about John Cle as uh the professor Wardman which is kind of like the mentor to Frankenstein in the film. kind of sets him on the path of of this whole kind of um uh project to reanimate you know um these dead people. So people don't know um in the movie um Branar's character of of Victor loses his mother to a very kind of like in very kind of dramatic kind of way and that kind of sets him down his kind of obsession with with death and whether we could bring back and the new sciences was happen at the time you know half the time this it's set within well at the start of the film for like a good portion it's set within his um like his college or his university um he's clashing with professors because his ideas are so unorthodox and such and so professor Walder was kind of like is kind of like the person who kind of ushered him along and kind of pushed these unorthodox ideas to lead to where to eventually lead to. Um, now at that time I wasn't watching a lot of Montipython and stuff. I kind of came to it later. Um, so I didn't know who John Cles was. And even afterwards I kind of realized that I still didn't get that that was John Cle underneath the makeup and all that because he looks so kind of different. And Cle actually took on the role because he's like no one goes up to him ask him to do character roles. He's always like the tall funny guy who who can do kind of awkward stuff. Um,
so I think at the time he was 54 years old and and it was the first time someone asked him to do a role where it's not about getting laughs, it's about playing the actual character and so he took to it and and he did it and again the makeup I thought with him was really great in it. How long did it take you to realize that was John Kis who was playing this character for? So as I said to me uh I was just I had blinders on quite a bit um when it came to to seeing who who this actor was.
I was pretty quick to it. I think it's just because I I'm always that my brain always just is like, "Wait a minute, something." Oh, okay. It's that person. Like I Lance and I just covered the show Midnight Mass, which was on Netflix.
Yeah.
And they have a bunch of like people in old person makeup, and he had no idea that a certain character was another person cuz they were in the old man makeup. But I clocked it pretty quickly because that's just I don't know, that's how my brain works. So I I noticed it pretty quickly. But then also his I think his voice is very distinct. So, even if I didn't notice physically, I know that voice would would have been a signal for me because I do know John Cle's work pretty well, especially at this at at that point as well. But this point, it's I Yeah, I just know John Cle very well.
Fish called Wanda is like one of my favorites.
Yeah. See, I watched I didn't watch a lot of that stuff till later. I think maybe the first John Cle thing I ever saw was maybe Rat Race that came out like in the late 90s. I remember seeing that in cinemas. And then after that, you know, the Pythons and and all everything else. Um, a name I gota I bring up though um who I think is like one of the winners of this movie is um Daniel Parker. He's a makeup um artist um from the UK um worked with um animated extras. He got the lone Oscar nomination for this role for the makeup in this film which I thought was I thought was pretty cool like the makeup job that he does here. Um speaking of John Cle, I think something that kind of messed me up a bit was the the teeth the caps bit of teeth um kind of different. So that was kind like, oh, all right. That's pretty cool. I know the British people had bad teeth, but I didn't know it was that bad. But yeah.
Um, okay. So, we got to talk about the filming, the production of this. Uh, so we've touched on a lot of stuff already in regards to Brena. Brena's ego kind of like taking over this monstrous kind of production. So, I said before there was clashes in between Copala and Brena, subtlety versus excess. Um, and so I've got, as you could see at the film, kind of the tone is kind of can be a little off at times or sometimes the really big bombastic scenes kind of sit uncomfortably kind of other ones. For me, the I really kind of like the big bombaxi scenes because again, going back to maybe a certain sense of nostalgia. It just to me, I never seen anything like it. Um, but looking back, you could see where certain things were just seemed to be too um too offputting in regards to kind of the excessiveness in in the movie. Um, and Brandon was like he wanted he wanted to create he said a fairy tale world with primary colors, large rooms, this heap. There's so many large rooms in this movie. Uh, space size, big buildings, big nature. He wanted enormous kind of natural force. That's what he wanted. He wanted something really big and enormous. Um, and I think it's really interesting how you you have a gothic horror, but primary colors is kind of like a very kind of big thing here. The big thing that I remember in regards to color is um a lot of the dress in the film. The scene where the mother is trying to um is giving birth um and the just the blood the crimson blood in it is like very red like very vibrant.
Um the scene where I think it was um Brana was he had Elizabeth in his arms. He was going up like a big whining staircase and her gown her wedding gown was just dripping red and that red was just flowing up the kind of thing. again very big and it kind of looked like not a movie set but a stage set in a certain way. The way that staircase kind of went up in the way that was made that looked very stagy to me and not film to me and it kind of put me off a little bit um because I was like well I could imagine seeing this like in an opera house or something like that and it could and it would work really well but in the movie I think at times some of the um set designs production designs um were really kind of clashing as well as narrative tones in the movie. That's something that kind of really came across with me. The Matt's Movie Reviews YouTube channel is brought to you by Tublic. Tublic is the world's largest marketplace for independent creators to sell their work on the highest quality merchandise. With over 1.2 million designs, Tublic is sure to have something you love.
Yeah, I definitely think there's a weird the set design. There's times where it just feels very seti like the the uh whatever laboratory itself. It's very big, but it just again it feels very very much like it's in a warehouse. And I I don't mind sometimes when things get very steady, but there's this one it just kind of gets a little out of control. And I think it's because of it's like the I think it's I think it's the lab that has that triangle window that has like the pokes of light through it and it just it looks so I I feel like if it was presented in a slightly different way it might not feel as as over the top but how Brana presents it it's it's hard to just not feel like oh okay yep we're in a set now we're in this place which I know they spent cuz they They built like two different ships for it, which I love that. But there's also a moment where you're like, did we really need to build practical full practical ships for this or could you have gotten away? Especially with how much it doesn't really these don't stand out as needing practical ships in these moments. So there's just odd odd decision making from Brana in part. And I think the thing that is the most odd of anything in the movie is when uh Helena Bottom Carter start she's like narrating her diary like or maybe it's not a maybe it might be a letter to
Victor
where it is so like it's it's genuinely only for the audience's benefit and I think that kind of stuff just shows like the weird tone that Bronna was going for with it where it's like whoa if you're going to do this like just have writing. I don't need her actually physically saying these things cuz Carter doesn't she sounds weird saying it. She sounds performative saying it. And I think that that's uh kind of a a running theme throughout this is that everyone feels so performative and the sets don't help with that because then it's like I'm sure that this would work great in a stage play, but I want a movie. I want I don't need it I don't need things to be so big and so again subtlety subtlety would have helped out a bit. I agree with Copala
the um what you just said there about the letter um that that bottom Carter is writing. I still remember there's a certain awkward beat to the way that she narrates that and she speaks to herself and I still remember a certain line that she says which is kind of weird where she's got her thing she's reading it and she goes well me well I miss you kind of like that kind of thing and like I remember how she said that exactly in that kind of way and again it was like at the same time like it was offputting but I think the way that I kind of look at this film now and like the way I think the best way you need to look at it to make it work you got to Look at it as a melodrama. It's going to be big and it's going to be um heart on sleeve kind of like big emotions, big everything, big uh you know, Brena kind of like chest out kind of everything else. Big stages. Speaking of that laboratory stage, how insane is that kind of set? Because you got pulleys, you got this huge tank with the electric gills and water and Brandon's running around and he's sweating supposedly freaking they use tubs and tubs of ky just everywhere because for all the kind of like gross stuff and all that. There was a supposedly um the scene where um Dairo comes out like new had the tank kind of burst and Dairo kind of oozes out and just [ __ ] everywhere. Um supposedly um as they're he's trying to pick up Dairo's character and he's slipping everywhere. Dairo is supposedly saying um in Brenma, "Don't get ky up my ass. Don't get ky up my ass." You know, it's like saying that to him as they're trying to trying to do that. Um and supposedly that kind of that moment in the film um led Dairo to kind of buy in more into the melodrama because he couldn't stop couldn't help but laugh during that scene. And you know, Dairo is very kind of like, you know,
like, you know, piranha focused kind of shark, great white focus with his stuff. So, he's cracking up. Like, I think I think he's kind of seeing the silliness of the whole thing, too. But again, with that scene, there are certain moments in horror that are just iconic. And I think that um the original Frankenstein is a whole it's alive, it's alive thing, right? It's like that's like one of the big things ever. Like people say that all the time. It's alive. It's alive. And I imagine with doing a movie like Frankenstein, Brena had to try to figure out a way to bring that to the movie cuz you can't do a Frankenstein without having that in it,
but kind of make it his own. And I think the the way that he does it in the film where he's like looking down at the tank and the eels are doing all their thing and everything else. It's mad cap. It's big. It's huge. It's not dramatic, but I kind of dig it. I don't know why. And it also has a kind of
I don't know kind of like a steampunk kind of aesthetic to it as well. It's like all kind of like chains and everything else. again tonally odd kind of mixed up with everything else but at the same time it's so big in everything else if you just if I look at it like as a melodrama above anything else um I think I I don't know I kind of dig it because it was just different to me and I sometimes I think different can be a weakness but I think sometimes it could be kind of like you know it could be an advantage and so many Frankenstein movies um that one definitely does stand out and for you know um whether good or bad it's a movie that definitely stands out with the way that it approaches it it stuff.
I'm curious as to uh what you think of the scene where the creature knocks Victor off like a cliff.
Victor goes flying and then he goes down like the slide slide. Yeah. It's like it's so s like it it's like conceptually it's so funny because literally then the creature has him like the next moment he's like dragging him out of the water where it's just like
I guess I guess uh Bronn just wanted to go down a slide here because otherwise I don't really understand the point of it cuz guess what the creature gets him anyway. I find that kind of funny because he's there and it's just him and he's got his little gun and he's going after this guy that he knows is like this almost immortal kind of giant kind of thing. I don't know exactly what he was going to achieve but I think what's quite funny about it is that he turns he sees a creature and he does like a push and it's like slow kind of back and the slide down. I don't know why, but it always recall to me the scene in Willow where Val Kilmer and Warrick Davis are going down the um tobogen down the um the slide and they turn into a big kind of snowball. I don't know why it kind of reminded me of that. Um it looks great. I think the photography like looks fantastic in the in the um location shoots and everything else,
but again, yeah, it does come back to I think Brena was trying to do some stuff which maybe he wasn't equipped yet to kind of pull off. I think maybe like with Thor later on he's got maybe used to doing certain action beats and stuff he can pull off at that movie. Maybe in this movie. Uh just I don't know if he if he got it yet. And it's interesting um so I was talking about the guy who wrote the initial script Stephy. Um he was at the um the premiier and he was watching the film with everyone else. And later on in this um podcast he did um he lives in Australia now. He lives in Darwin in Australia. Did a podcast with people there. Um, and he talked about how the movie kind of like Brena kind of became sort of the the metaphor of the movie itself. Like Brener was turn like was turning into like this obsessive kind of guy. He was trying to make this thing out of different pieces and everything else and it just made this big monster that was like kind of out of control. And he also said that Brandon banned executives from his set set. He got crazy just like Victor Frankenstein. He was married to Eron Thompson. Meanwhile, he's shacking up with Helen Bon Carter on the set and everyone knows it. So, everyone knew what was going on there as well. So, he's just getting like again high in his own supply. He's making this movie which which he which again he's the real like Victor the Frankenstein here. He's the boy wonder. He's trying to create this big thing basically doing pieces of everything else. He's trying to put it together. The monster's out of control and he's falling in love with his leading lady. Huge scandal when this happened. by the way like in like in the UK huge scandal and you know how much the UK love their tabloid tabloid tabloid fighter right I imagine it probably was around the same time as the whole Princess Diana you know Prince Charles thing as well um they love a good big thing and for him especially who was kind of like this uh stage Shakespeare guy pip and proper you know um you know like you said like Brenda said before people kind of saw him as a bit of a bit of a wanker because of just the way he was, but he was married to Emma Thompson, like this golden couple. Um, I think they just ate it up like like nothing else over there. And it was just a Yeah. huge huge scandal in regards to this movie.
Yeah. It's lucky that uh Helena Bottom Carter's like career made it through because that very easily could have been the kind of thing that just destroys her career,
which would have been too bad. I really like Helena Bottom Carter. So
she she bounced back I think pretty well I think because um what what would come out come out after that? Fight Club would come out.
Yeah, Fight Club would have been a big one. Put her back on the map.
Tim Tim Burton movies as well would have been quite big for her as well. And then after that I think it kind of became you know she became an institute within herself. She wasn't attached to anyone. which was kind of like her own kind of thing after like when she afterwards when she broke up with Tim Bur and all that like she was like you know um Helen Bodarta she was like her own kind of like she had her own identity um and she appears has appeared in heaps of films since then Harry Potter everything else. Brandon do I was trying to think what was the last kind of things he did after this because I know he said that he he did go back to the UK. He had a divorce from uh Emma Thompson. He did a really small film afterwards. Um I'm just going to look here what was called cuz he does a does I think um I forgot what the film's called but it's like a really small film about a um funny enough a UK a guy from the UK who went to Hollywood. He comes back to the UK and does a small Shakespeare play. That's what the movie is about. It's essentially playing himself in the movie. Um I forgot what the movie is called though. Um but yeah, he did really small stuff. I don't I don't think I don't remember the like the next big thing that he does after that though.
Hamlet Hamlet was just like two years later.
Oh, right. Okay. Had quite the cast.
I remember he did um was a movie called Gingerbread Man or something. It was like Robert Alman was directed I think.
Yeah, Ginger. Yeah, the Gingerbread Man. I don't I don't think that
proposition as well.
Oh, yeah. No, not the proposition. Um, Rabbit Proof Fence was the one that he did.
No. Oh, I'm not just in terms of him uh starring in
Oh, fair enough. Yeah, he's in a movie. He's like 98, I believe. Proposition. It's like I mean it's yeah
The Matt's Movie Reviews podcast is brought to you by Amazon Prime Video, one of the best on demand streaming services available. Amazon Prime Video features exclusive Amazon originals as well as popular movies and TV shows. Watch Amazon Prime Video anytime, anywhere. It's nothing. It's like nothing uh amazing, but I think like Neil Patrick Harris is in it.
Okay.
Yeah, it's a it's a weird one. I don't I'm not sure I'd recommend it, but I I know that that was another uh another one that he was in.
There was a movie he did in Australia in early 2000s um called Rabbit Proof Fence, which was directed by Philip Moyes. And it was a movie about the um the um stolen generations, the indigenous people um kids who were stolen from their families and such. He plays like like a really rigid kind of like English kind of colonel who like sets about this kind of plan to be implemented. Um and that was a big film here in Australia as well. And now ever since then I think Go ahead.
Wild Wild West. He's the bad guy in Wild Wild West.
That's right. Yes.
I just got the mental image.
That was 98 right when that came out.
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Kevin Klein,
Will Smith.
Big Dr. Loveless. That was that was an insane movie. Oh my god. Yeah. Terrible film, but like he's great at that.
I think I saw it in cinemas. He's the one who's got like he's he's walking around um with like he's like the spider legs.
Spider legs. Yeah. He's like what? Yeah. That's a crazy
steampunk. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like he definitely wasn't wasn't in a lot of stuff that I was watching at the time. he just wasn't cuz he's kind of stuck around with like period pieces and h and like Shakespearean type roles and just wasn't ever really my thing.
And then funny enough, he kind of becomes kind of like a guy who's part of all these different IP franchises. Um Harry Potter was the first one he kind of went along with. Um and then he goes into the the initial stages of the MCU with um Thor and then he does Artemis Foul and then he does Agatha Christie kind of stuff as well. um yeah you know um and then he finally gets an Oscar for um Belfast which again kind is more of a stripped back kind of movie black and white and everything else. So it's really kind of interesting kind of see how post it was kind of like this really the ascent was there with those first movies and then after Frankstein kind of went down kind of settled and then he found his kind of his groove back there again as well. I think a lot of people of of maybe the Harry Potter Potter generation probably didn't even know he was married to uh Emma Thompson and such, right? He's probably so long has passed and they just know him as the guy who, you know, shows up in these movies and and directed Thor and and what was the other one? He did the Jack Ryan film as well, right? Um
yeah, he definitely Shadow Recruit Ryan Shadow Recruit.
Yeah, he's like the bad guy in it too, I think. And
plays a Russian. That's right. Yeah.
Yeah. which feels off. I' I've only watched the movie the one time and it was like back when it came out. But I remember thinking like this I like Bronna, but this isn't something about this is not working.
It was an interesting film because it was supposed to set the stage for this new cinematic reboot and it lasted the one movie and you had the stars. you had Chris Pine and Akira Nightly and everyone else and and maybe what a few years after that they went the uh streaming route with um Kasinski um in the uh the Jack Ryan show. So
yeah, it's a it's a he has a very very interesting uh career here. So the movie comes out November 4, 1994. So it has a budget of 45 million, which is kind of crazy to think, you know,
when movies this big. Yeah. 45 um $112 million worldwide. Sounds sounds good like a but supposedly like way less successful than um Bram Stoker's uh Bram Stoker's Dracula um in in the film um that film. Um and so I think Copala really just wanted more from from it and didn't get it. I I know Wolf came out afterwards. I'm not sure if that was a Francis Ford Copela movie as well, the one with um Jack Nicholson with Mike Nichols.
I got to double check. I don't know if Copela had any involvement with that.
Um because it was interesting how these movies kind of one after the other. There was the the Wolfman movie and then that movie I'm just going to look it up here. Um so
at why don't why don't we get a Creature from the Black Lagoon? Come on. Got all these things that are coming back.
Well, I don't know. Why not? Supposedly I think they're they're making one, aren't they? Creature from Black Lagoon.
Well, I mean technically like Shape of Water came back and we got that. Uh that's that was our creature. That was our classy creature. I just met in terms of where's our mid to early 90s like creature from the Black Lagoon style movie. They they they missed their opportunity.
They did. I imagine after Frankenstein died there were like no more of these. Um because at that time horror changes, right? 96 comes around, Screams there. The teen kind of horror movie comes back. Um in a big way.
Yeah. Scream changed everything in terms of horror. Suddenly it was like you have to be meta. if you're not meta, you're not going to do anything.
And then after that, it's action horror with Blade and Underworld. So, that was kind of like the stuff that took it and and then here we are again. They were trying to do um the Dark Universe again with the Mummy with Tom Cruz didn't work. Um but now we got a new Frankenstein. I do wonder if they're going to do another new Dracula. Um I know that Luke Basson one's coming out soon, but supposedly it's just doesn't seem to be making much traction there.
yeah,
at the London premiere, um Prince Charles actually shows up and thanks, you know, Kenneth Brener for um shooting the film in London. Again, kind of funny with the two probably the UK's most two well-known adulterers are together at this movie there. So, it's kind of funny thing there. Um again, going back to to um uh to what was his name? Um Steph Lady who was the screenwriter. talked about being at the premiier and everyone was kind of sitting down and um who was there? He said Tom Cruz was there. Nicole Kidman, Danny Devidito was sitting next to him. And he said that Prince Charles um sat behind Danny Devito. Danny Dvito turned around he says I don't care who you are just don't kick my chair which would have been a fun sight to see because uh Danny Devito
relatable.
He doesn't give a you won't give a [ __ ] Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Like don't don't do it. Um but yeah, so it's been like I think last year was what its uh 30th anniversary or 20th was 90th anniversary last year. Um and to me it's a film that I think has see I'm kind of bl I got blinders on in regards to movie because I do have sentimental value for the film and there's many things I do like about it. when it comes into the context of Frankenstein movies though. So now we got the the Toro and then you got the classic, you know, films of the Universal Monsters, where do you think Mary Shelley sits? Is it bottom of the rug or do you think it's kind of like nice in the middle kind of like uh kind of like a film there? Um because it is a big production. It's probably one of the biggest kind of um fragile productions there has been. And um I know and lately it does have a bit of a cult following to it as well cuz I imagine a lot of a lot of uh uh people around my age who kind of grew up watching it on on VHS and everything might have the same kind of nostalgia. Where's your kind of where do you put it like in the pecking order of things of Frankenstein or on cinema?
I mean for me I definitely rank it lower just but I understand it is a divisive movie. I know some other people that really quite enjoy it and I think it ultimately comes down to I'm not a big fan of the book. My my Frankenstein is the Boris Caroff style and even to an extent like the Christopher Lee Hammer one something where it was where it's just more of a I don't know I like I want the creature. I don't need the like the Vic Victor Frankenstein isn't the isn't the cell to me and it's just like the I'm not sure if you saw it but the new GMO del Toro Frankenstein film
it's very very good and you'll see there's so many similarities between that and this film but uh I like the my favorite part of the movie was once the the you know the creature gets introduced and and it's more of the like the creature story that's where that's always where I've always fallen. I'm more of a I'm more of a monster movie fan and I the other stuff just it's not as appealing to me, but I understand other people enjoying it. It's just never been never been my thing. And now especially with Del Toro's version, I can't imagine I revisit Mary Shell's Frankenstein often just because they are so similar. But I like I I'm a Del Toro guy, so I'll definitely be doing that. I'll be choosing that more so over over Kenneth Bronna's Ego trip.
For me as well, I think the original Frankenstein, the Top Brownie one, is just fantastic. It's one of my favorite horror movies. It really is. Um, and I know that that kind of um Boris the Boris Caroff ones the the Universal ones and ones got watered down a lot over the years with sequels and and um kind of like all these kind of part they kind of partner up with the other Universal and his um what what are names um
oh help me out here the
Abello Castello meet Frankenstein like a lot of that kind of stuff as well
um which I I think you know it's funny in its own way but if you're going to look at a comedy you look at what Peter Bo That's been Young Frankenstein, right?
Yes.
And that kind of stuff. Or maybe even what? Um uh was it um what was the name? What's the name of the actor who did um Frankenstein and Monster Squad? He's the bloke who's in from Manhunter. Oh, I forgot.
Yeah, I can't remember his name. I'm always so kind of
which I'm which is going to hit me later. I'll text you when it comes up. I think it's not it's not Tom Hunting, but it's something close to that.
Tom Nunan. There we go. Tom Nan. Yeah. Who who in in himself he's just a a frightening figure. He's very tall and imposing and such. So
yeah, I mean the Last Action Hero is one of my first experiences with him and he's terrifying in that film.
Terrifying. And there's a movie he did um this more um Jack Nicholson film that Sean Pen directed called The Pledge. He plays like a villainous character in that as well. He's just terrifying in that too. Um, but yeah, I mean, Mary Shen, I think above anything else, it's an interesting uh film to just see how Kenneth Brener kind of like the the the Englishman who could do no wrong, the Wonder comes to America and then all hell kind of breaks loose because of it. and whatever movie comes out from whatever film came out from it. It's definitely um a movie that left an impression more kind of like as a um experiment maybe done bad by some experiment done good by others. Um but it's a movie that affected people's lives in a very kind of like you know negative way when it comes to you know the personal lives of the people involved. Um but yeah it's a fascinating film nevertheless. Um, and I still think it looks great too. Like even though um a lot of the decisions regarding, you know, clashing of tone, I think the the photography, the score is fantastic, too, I thought. And some of the um the costumes and such was was is pretty well done. Um,
yeah.
I think overall though, I think it's going to be hard to to uh have people, like you said, kind of watch that movie when you have the Del Toro one because I think the Del Toro one kind of unsurp. Um, and I am I am interested in watching. I just haven't really had had a chance to do so yet. Um I I kind of get a little um standoffish whenever films come out and they get really big a claim and I kind of like I'm going to Yeah, I'm going to wait a bit for that to die down cuz I don't want to um watch something with that kind of stuff going on. But regardless, thank you so much Tyler for joining me today to talk all things Mary Shirley's Frankenstein. Um and for again for everyone out there listening in the show notes you can check out all of Tyler's work. Um I'm going to have all his stuff for Joe Blow and he's for his own website as well. Make sure you check it out. Um yeah, and I just got to say again, it's been a pleasure to talk to you all things Mary Sherless Frankenstein. Um and and also um I know it's Thanksgiving over there in America. So I'm thankful to you for for all for your time today and best of luck for you with the upcoming days. I hope you're getting a lot of cardio in now as much as you can so you can survive the uh the festive treats that are coming your way.
Definitely. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is always a blast, Matt. So again, appreciate it and I'm thankful that you invited me on to your show. So,
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